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Tactics
Topic Started: Sep 1 2007, 06:40 PM (689 Views)
Bobbyzimmerframe
Unregistered

I keep reading that Bruce has his tactics wrong but what, specifically, do supporters mean? To me it seems most likely that we simply don't have enough talent within the squad and whatever tactics we pursue we will be found wanting because our players are not good enough. I'm not trying to defend Bruce here I'm simply curious to hear what fans have to say about this tactical issue and why they think it might benefit us if we change so let's here from you guys so get typing folks.
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87dominguez
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Frank Worthington
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Sep 1 2007, 07:40 PM
I keep reading that Bruce has his tactics wrong but what, specifically,  do supporters mean?  To me it seems most likely that we simply don't have enough talent  within the squad and whatever tactics we pursue we will be found wanting because our players are not good enough. I'm not trying to defend Bruce here I'm simply curious to hear what fans have to say about this tactical issue and why they think it might benefit us if we change so let's here from you guys so get typing folks.

Forssell
Kapo
Larsson
McSheffery
Jerome
O'Connor
De Ridder
Ridgewell
ect ect ect Good players, not great but there's a good standard of player there in our squad.

Look at Readings team last season, i dont think they spent anything really and look where they ended up. Look at Wigans team and also Fulhams, not great by any stretch but a positive manager will get results.

It's all about management, it's all about positivity and i dont think Bruce has enough to be honest. It's nearly 7 years since he arrived and it's got stale in my opinion.

With the right man at the helm we can stay up no doubt, it's just getting the right man thats the worry for me.
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Blue Nose Gaz
Peter Enckelman
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It means SB plays 4-5-1 at home only picks defensive midfeilders.
plays most players out of position he his unable to motivate the team.
thi is my first post in 12 months but after the performances in every match this season I believe enough is enough.
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Bobbyzimmerframe
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You may very well be right 87dominquez but what you had to say avoided the tactical issue entirely. Your thread was about motivation, positivity etc- all important subjects but I'm looking for someone to outline, in some detail, what s/he thinks might be productive on the tactical side. I'm not out to take sides here I'm just interested in what the fans can come up with.
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bornblues64
Mikael Forssell
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Sep 1 2007, 06:40 PM
I keep reading that Bruce has his tactics wrong but what, specifically, do supporters mean? To me it seems most likely that we simply don't have enough talent within the squad and whatever tactics we pursue we will be found wanting because our players are not good enough. I'm not trying to defend Bruce here I'm simply curious to hear what fans have to say about this tactical issue and why they think it might benefit us if we change so let's here from you guys so get typing folks.

I get more hacked off with the consistent picking of players in their wrong positions more than anything else, no use having any tactics if the players are uncomfortable in their positions it doesnt matter what the tactics, it just doesnt work and it keeps happening , Why???

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87dominguez
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Frank Worthington
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Sep 1 2007, 07:53 PM
You may very well be right 87dominquez but what you had to say avoided the tactical  issue entirely. Your thread was about motivation, positivity etc- all important subjects but I'm looking for someone to outline, in some detail, what s/he thinks might be productive on the tactical side. I'm not out to take sides here I'm just interested in what  the fans can come up with.

I think alot of fans have the same opinion on Bruce's "tactics", it's the most one dimensional football i've ever seen down at St Andrews in my opinion. It's just so poor i cannot believe we're actually in this league. Even last season we didn't play well against so called "poor" teams in the Championship.

Maybe i'm bisased because i'm a Blues fan but it always seems to me like every other team passes the ball better than we do, they seem to be quicker when the ball is on the floor at picking a pass where as when we get the ball there is no movement from our players so the player with the ball has to take that extra second to find someone or pass it back to the keeper so he can hoof it up field.

It's poor and stale because it's been like for about 3 years in my opinion.

We just a fresh start, someone with new ideas tacticly and just different ways to bring the club forward.
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salad_dodger
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Paul Tait
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Sep 1 2007, 06:53 PM
You may very well be right 87dominquez but what you had to say avoided the tactical  issue entirely. Your thread was about motivation, positivity etc- all important subjects but I'm looking for someone to outline, in some detail, what s/he thinks might be productive on the tactical side. I'm not out to take sides here I'm just interested in what  the fans can come up with.

Take today Jaidi has a mare, Djourou not having a good time in midfield, why didn't Steve just take Jaidi off put Djourou at CH and put Nafti in MF? thats the sort of thing that happens time and time again with SB :banghead:
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Unregistered

I think you're absolutely right 87dom. other teams DO seem to pass the better than our lot but again that's not a tactical issue. Whatever formation you play if your players can't master the most basic skill in soccer then you're in for a hard time... as I suspect we are about to find out.
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blueblackpool
Kenny Burns
[ *  *  *  * ]
i like brucie...however a prime example to me of getting things wrong was with david dunn, scared to play him center mid....he is now at rovers with sav.
he does seem to insist on messing about with left back also.
it does seem a couple of minor adjustments and a bit more poitive thinking and blues will be o.k.!
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Bookemdanno
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Alex Govan
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Sep 1 2007, 07:12 PM
I think you're absolutely right 87dom. other teams DO seem to pass the better than our lot but again that's not a tactical issue. Whatever formation you play if your players can't master the most basic skill in soccer then you're in for a hard time... as I suspect we are about to find out.

If we play two defensive midfielders, who passing ability is not the best, then the whole flow of the team in the middle of the pitch breaks down.
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richinio
Garry Pendrey
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I think the following sums Bruce up....

How many players have heard talk about how SB has got them working on improving the defensive side of their game?

Kilkenny, McSheff, Danns, Larson immediately spring to mind.

How many defensively minded players have we heard about improving their attacking play?

I can't think of a single example.

SB is obsessed with defence. He talks about us being more adventurous but still fills the midfield with at least 2 of Muamba/Nafti/Djourou/DJ. And then compounds that by curbing the attacking instincts of the likes of McSheff. This is why we have never been a free scoring side under Bruce and why people complain of a lack of excitement/entertainment.

I wonder if this new Oubina bloke can inject some quality and creativity into our play or will he be another that is shackled to death or converted to a left back?

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tevets
Geoff Horsfield
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Sep 1 2007, 06:40 PM
I keep reading that Bruce has his tactics wrong but what, specifically, do supporters mean? To me it seems most likely that we simply don't have enough talent within the squad and whatever tactics we pursue we will be found wanting because our players are not good enough. I'm not trying to defend Bruce here I'm simply curious to hear what fans have to say about this tactical issue and why they think it might benefit us if we change so let's here from you guys so get typing folks.

The reason people keep on about tactics is because Bruce’s one and only is the reason for most of our problems, including poor passing.

This has been gone over on numerous occasions but basically by playing two holding midfielders we sit too deep. This means there is too large a gap between the midfield and attack forcing the longer ball game and therefore relinquishing possession cheaply, i.e. bad passing. Often the only choice is a square ball or a hoof.

This also generally leads to lack of ball retention, slow build up play and an open invite to the opposition to attack at will. We are also very easy to defend against because we create nothing through the middle of the pitch. Things are then made worse because we also play our token attacking midfielders on the wing, whether they are wingers or not, which narrows our play.

All of the above may be forgivable on the odd occasion to negate certain opposition. It is wholly unacceptable to do it for years and years when it plainly doesn’t work. We got away with it in the Championship because we had the best players, in the prem it doesn’t work but Bruce is incapable or realising this or just doesn’t have the ability to change.

We might all disagree with the best line up but it is not hard to see the vast majority of teams play with one defensive midfielder and one attacking. They do this because it works and gives the team balance and options yet even after all this time Bruce can’t see this.
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wardendbluenose
Alex Govan
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Play players in their correct positions, at least give them a fighting chance. Right-footers at LB might work for a game but we should only do it when there is no-one else to play there.

That and don't play 2 defensive center midfielders in a 4-4-2. It isolates our strikers and wingers too much.
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BluesBot
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Paul Tait
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I remember when we first got into the prem and with the players Bruce was buying - I truly thought that bruce would try and emulate (to a degree) the type of football he was involved in during his united days. ( I remember posting such thoughts on the old forum)
Such as closing down the opposition quickly and breaking quickly - having a hard man and playmaker in midfield, proper wingers, and a solid central defensive partnership - the way united played in the 90s.

I couldnt have been more wrong :(

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bornblues64
Mikael Forssell
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Im sure he only saw Kapo on You Tube, where he played him today was a new one on the player im sure.

Feel sorry for Oubiña , a footballer about to suffer the Bruce Syndrome, decent till he came here :LMAO: :LMAO:

Oubiña the next left back :LMAO: :LMAO:

Maybe Ghaly hit a nerve eh?
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BornBlueNosed
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Martin Grainger
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I actually think SB has learnt from some of his mistakes but when things aren't going well always reverts to ultra-defensive mode and can be to cautious generally. At present I think it's too early to panic and start talking about sacking the manager but I believe our squad is good enough for lower mid-table mediocracy this season.

Most of the obvious problematic tactical stuff has been mentioned above but the most annoying thing for me is our attempts to shut up shop, sit deep and soak up pressure with a 1-0 lead whether we score in the first or 90th minute.

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bcfcno1fan
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Alex Govan
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I wouldn't mind playing defensive as much if we could actually defend, but we really cant.

3 against Chelsea
2 against Sunderland
1 against West Ham
1 against Derby
1 against Hereford
2 against Boro

Thats 10 in 6 games, and as we play 4-4-2 defensive, im not sure how we do.

We cant be conceding this many if we want to stay up, and considering Bruce was a defender, surely we should be able to defend as he has played with some of the best defenders at Man Utd..... :unsure:


Up the Blues
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spliffy
Geoff Horsfield
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Sep 1 2007, 07:12 PM
I think you're absolutely right 87dom. other teams DO seem to pass the better than our lot but again that's not a tactical issue. Whatever formation you play if your players can't master the most basic skill in soccer then you're in for a hard time... as I suspect we are about to find out.

what i'd like to see is a bit of thought going into it

most of us see enough of other players teams on the tv to pick out strengths and weeknesses of certain players teams, why do we always seem to have the same two plans to play,, plan a) 4,4,2 against teams we think we might get something from and plan B) 4,5,1 against teams we know we are going to have a hard time against.

when we have played in the past i've seen players pick up early yellow cards against us ,when do we put pressure against em ? we are incapable of changing our game in mid game to maximise any advantage we have and like wise any problems we are having,no set piece drills,,always the same old thing !

we dont have then best players but thats no excuse for not having a team!

i suppose what im trying to say is we are one dimensional at best,we try to play the % game all of the time .

ok my tatics for bolton next week,,

team

taylor

parnaby jaidi ridgewell queudrue

djourou oubina muamba

larsson/de ridder kappo/mcshef

jerome/o'conner


i'd have the 2 forward midfield players playing just behind the striker in an attempt to pull the centre backs about and ask the full backs to overlap when bolton tuck in there full backs to counter our playing narrow.

thats how i'd do it anyways........lol guess thats why im not a manager :LMAO:
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Bobbyzimmerframe
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well I agree with the general gist of what is being said; ie we sit too deep inviting teams onto us but the stark fact is that we simply haven't got anyone who is comfortable in an advanced midfield role-unless of course Oubina can do it. In fairness to Bruce I'm sure he's aware of this lack of creativity- hence his pursuit of Ghaly, Luccin, Oubina etc and let's face it wasn't his fault over the Ghaly issue but what concerns me most is that even if Oubina does fit the bill Bruce will revert to his ultra defensive mode whenever we gain a lead. He did exactly that when we were wiping the floor with Blackburn a couple of season back- we came out for the second half with a three one lead, strung a bunch of guys around our penalty area and within a few minutes the lead had evaporated and we ended up clinging on for a daw.
And Bruce is not the only one who does it- Martin Jol did exactly the thing at Fulham yesterday bringing on Dawson when Fulham were on the floor and we all know what happened thereafter. Jesus they're not rocket scientists these mangers, are they. Another mistake common to just about ALL of them is to make substitutions during time added in the mistaken notion they're being smart in eating up time- what usually happens is that the referee usually overcompensates by adding on far more time that the substitution actually took. I guess that chairmen don't send out to MENSA when they're looking for new managers, eh?
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Blooboy
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i always think a Steve Bruce team defends, it's a case of lets not get beat, we don't pose enough questions of teams, it's not the players, it's the way Steve sets his teams to play. Ask yourself a simple question... we've had tons of players under Steve but the team plays the same way all the time, why is that?? it's simple... it's lets not get beat and see what happens. We don't have anyone that can unlock a defence with a killer ball, it's hit and hope to much. i have noticed more passing on the ground thats true, but still we can't get in behind defences because we aren't attack minded, we are defensive first.

Reading in their first season posed questions of teams because Steve Coppell gives his teams a simple 4-4-2 look about his teams home and away, all his players know what they have got to do, they don't try anything fancy... sure this season they have been accussed of adopting a defend first attack later attitude, but that only came from the big clubs frustrated at not being able to break them down. i don't believe this, i think it's just a case of Reading once again being able to second guess where and when the dangers will come. Take Middlesborough yesterday, Downing is one of their best players and i would have thought most of us would have thought their attacks would come down the flank, not steve though. i notice in the press him bleating about the one that got away...'Mido'. for gods sake steve start praising your own players and take positives from your own teams performance.

Steve needs to look at his team and his tactics and adopt a method and stick with it, you could say thats what he's done, but how much longer can he get away with it, same team tactics, different players.
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tevets
Geoff Horsfield
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Sep 2 2007, 09:14 AM
well I agree with the general gist of what is being said; ie we sit too deep inviting teams onto us but the stark fact is that we simply haven't got anyone who is comfortable in an advanced midfield role-unless of course Oubina can do it. In fairness to Bruce I'm sure he's aware of this lack of creativity- hence his pursuit of Ghaly, Luccin, Oubina etc and let's face it wasn't his fault over the Ghaly issue but what concerns me most is that even if Oubina does fit the bill Bruce will revert to his ultra defensive mode whenever we gain a lead.

None of the players you mention we were after were attacking midfielders, they are all defensive / combative players. The reason we don’t have an attacking, ball playing central midfielder is Bruce won’t play one and doesn’t try to bring them in, we were never even seriously linked to one.

When we have had players who can and do normally play that position, Dunn, Jiri, even Danns etc., they are generally marginalised by being played on the wing. Currently Kapo, and Danns, could play in the middle as a more attacking option but that is about it, and it is not going to happen.

We play like we do because Bruce only plays one way, a way that is one dimensional and limiting. In the Championship we got away with it, in the prem the opposition just love the space in the middle of the pitch we give them.
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V_For_Vendetta
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Paul Tait
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Bobbyzimmerframe
Sep 1 2007, 06:40 PM
I keep reading that Bruce has his tactics wrong but what, specifically, do supporters mean? To me it seems most likely that we simply don't have enough talent within the squad and whatever tactics we pursue we will be found wanting because our players are not good enough. I'm not trying to defend Bruce here I'm simply curious to hear what fans have to say about this tactical issue and why they think it might benefit us if we change so let's here from you guys so get typing folks.

Interesting post, but the one thing that stands out to me is that Blues have always played the same way, regardless of whatever team or players are the pitch.
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Joe
Geoff Horsfield
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It's not tactics. We are not playing hoofball either. It's down to the quality of player you can get at PL level. We are not prepared to pay the money for the top quality, so we get performances like Boro. You cut your cloth accordingly. It's not rocket science.I am amazed how many people don't see the lack of ambition by the board as the underlying reason for our malaise
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V_For_Vendetta
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Paul Tait
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Joe
Sep 2 2007, 10:08 AM
It's not tactics. We are not playing hoofball either. It's down to the quality of player you can get at PL level. We are not prepared to pay the money for the top quality, so we get performances like Boro. You cut your cloth accordingly. It's not rocket science.I am amazed how many people don't see the lack of ambition by the board as the underlying reason for our malaise

I would go along with that partly, but I see little difference in playing style between this team and any of Bruce's teams previously.

I think we had a better side when Cunningham/Upson/Clapham/Kenna/Savage/Cisse/Horsfield/Dugarry were at their peak and playing well. We weren't the prettiest, but we were hard to beat in those days. Apart from Ridgewell and Muamba, I can't see any players who come close to matching that standard. Kapo has all the ability to be as good as anyone but seems disinterested once he's lost the ball a few times.

The decision to keep playing Mehdi Nafti will ultimately be the achilles heal of Steve Bruce as will the decision to sell Stephen Clemence.

It will be interesting to see whether Daniel De Ridder will be given a chance, or will he be the next Luciano Figueroa? - "not quite ready yet!"
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tevets
Geoff Horsfield
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Joe
Sep 2 2007, 10:08 AM
It's not tactics. We are not playing hoofball either. It's down to the quality of player you can get at PL level. We are not prepared to pay the money for the top quality, so we get performances like Boro. You cut your cloth accordingly. It's not rocket science.I am amazed how many people don't see the lack of ambition by the board as the underlying reason for our malaise

A good tactician / manager can make an indifferent bunch of players play as a team and play above themselves. A poor tactician / manager can take a good bunch of players and turn them into a pub team.

Tactics have a large part to play in football and you only get the best out of players when they are played in a system they are comfortable with. We have good players that have proven themselves at other clubs, why then do they look like a disinterested pub team?
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